Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where...

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Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?


Not knowing original (scientific) research fallacyIs there a word for a fallacy made by a listener instead of a speaker?Any video course on Logic & Logical fallacies?“I have X in my blood” argumentsWhat fallacy dismisses criticism of a bad law with “just don't break it”?How does one actually settle an argument with logic?Slippery slope fallacy, clarification on its correct useIs This An Example of the Straw Man Fallacy or Something Else Entirely? If So, What Fallacy Is It?Is there a name for the fallacy where you pretend some universal fact is particular evidence for your claim?Is accusing an opponent of committing any fallacy a red herring?













4















Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?



For example, suppose someone said, "If a dog bites people, then it's a vicious dog." Then someone counters, "What do you mean by 'bites'? Define 'biting people'. Define 'dog'."










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  • 7





    Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

    – user4894
    9 hours ago






  • 2





    Relevant : Infinite regress.

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

    – Conifold
    6 hours ago











  • Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

    – Agnius Vasiliauskas
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

    – Eike Pierstorff
    49 mins ago
















4















Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?



For example, suppose someone said, "If a dog bites people, then it's a vicious dog." Then someone counters, "What do you mean by 'bites'? Define 'biting people'. Define 'dog'."










share|improve this question









New contributor




dogperson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 7





    Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

    – user4894
    9 hours ago






  • 2





    Relevant : Infinite regress.

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

    – Conifold
    6 hours ago











  • Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

    – Agnius Vasiliauskas
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

    – Eike Pierstorff
    49 mins ago














4












4








4








Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?



For example, suppose someone said, "If a dog bites people, then it's a vicious dog." Then someone counters, "What do you mean by 'bites'? Define 'biting people'. Define 'dog'."










share|improve this question









New contributor




dogperson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?



For example, suppose someone said, "If a dog bites people, then it's a vicious dog." Then someone counters, "What do you mean by 'bites'? Define 'biting people'. Define 'dog'."







logic fallacies






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edited 3 hours ago









virmaior

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asked 10 hours ago









dogpersondogperson

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  • 7





    Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

    – user4894
    9 hours ago






  • 2





    Relevant : Infinite regress.

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

    – Conifold
    6 hours ago











  • Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

    – Agnius Vasiliauskas
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

    – Eike Pierstorff
    49 mins ago














  • 7





    Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

    – user4894
    9 hours ago






  • 2





    Relevant : Infinite regress.

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

    – Conifold
    6 hours ago











  • Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

    – Agnius Vasiliauskas
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

    – Eike Pierstorff
    49 mins ago








7




7





Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

– user4894
9 hours ago





Best not to argue with people on the Internet. You can tell them the sun rises in the east and they'll complain that you didn't provide a link.

– user4894
9 hours ago




2




2





Relevant : Infinite regress.

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
6 hours ago





Relevant : Infinite regress.

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
6 hours ago




1




1





Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

– Conifold
6 hours ago





Various names are logic chopping, nitpicking, splitting hairs, etc.

– Conifold
6 hours ago













Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

– Agnius Vasiliauskas
6 hours ago





Yes, of course - I would call it define definition fallacy :-)

– Agnius Vasiliauskas
6 hours ago




2




2





I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

– Eike Pierstorff
49 mins ago





I am really not sure that there is such a thing as a "common" term, unless you mean common to specific peer group. To use the loaded example, "rape" sounds like a common term, but the definition will vary depending on if you ask a judge, a chauvinist, a feminist etc. And some dog owners can argue endlessly about what it means for dog to "bite" somebody ("how is that a bite when there is barely any blood" etc). So you would probably have to define "common" (sorry) before the question can really be answered.

– Eike Pierstorff
49 mins ago










3 Answers
3






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5














Generally speaking, in philosophical discussions, it is often required to provide definitions for words that seem obvious otherwise, let me give you an example:



When you say : The King of France is bold . Russell may ask you, what do you mean by The? (I will not talk about the theory of descriptions here).



And Russell's question here would be legitimate, and it is significant to analytical philosophy, in what sense do you claim that the king of France such and such...?! (and this word in Russell's terms means more than it seems to mean)



So, I would assume that an analytical philosopher is NOT committing a fallacy here, since I know that even the slightest of our common uses of language can still present some ambiguities at a deeper analytical level.



So, back to your example:




What do you mean by bite?




I do not know of a particular example of a discussion where 'bite' would pose any definitional issues, but consider this dialogue:




  • A: Your dog bites

  • B: What do you mean by bites?

  • A: I mean bite, you know what I mean.


In this situation, B must provide examples as to what definitional level he is talking about. And may reply:



B: I mean, in what sense my dog bites? in the aggressive sense of biting people to hurt them? or in the sense of playful biting?



As you can see here, there is still an ambiguity in the statement. But there are caveats, these factors can resolve the ambiguities, and add in implied meanings, even if A does not provide further details.




  • The tone and state in which A talks (unless they are texting)

  • B already knowing his dog is aggressive.


So ambiguities only arise either when B knows his dog is not aggressive (so he suspects that 'bites' means playful biting), and when they are texting (so B cannot see how A feels about it).



In case all ambiguities are resolved, but B is still asking questions about defining the word 'bite' , then you may refer to these fallacies:





  • Sealioning Asking questions and demands for endless answers.

  • It might be a Red Herring , if B drags the discussion towards 'bite' instead of talking about his dog's behavior.


As well as fallacies suggested in the comments above.



But remember, it might not be a fallacy if there are still ambiguities that need to be resolved, so that the parties know exactly what they are talking about.



Edit



A sentence is anything that is said, for example : Your dog bites people.



But in philosophical discussions, philosophers (especially analytical philosophers and logicians) deal with propositions.



You dog bites and Your dog bites are one sentence, that may refer to 2 (or more) propositions. Propositions are what you mean by a sentence, not what is articulated or expressed, but also what is implied.



Many sentences can refer to one proposition, like I love Paris, J'aime Paris and 我喜欢巴黎...etc.



And many propositions may be implied by one sentence, I love you is one sentence, that can imply many meanings (propositions) : Romantic love, parental love...etc.



Edit 2



As Frank's answer pointed out, sealioning is considered a pseudo-fallacy by Bo Bennett.






share|improve this answer

































    4














    I up voted SmootQ's answer, but I want to elaborate on it a bit.



    As SmootQ suggested, the answer depends largely on the person making the argument and his or her intent.



    If the person asking for definitions is earnest, then there's no foul play involved.



    If the person is playing games with you, then there is foul play involved, though it doesn't really qualify as a fallacy.



    On another note, this can be a two-way game. If a person(s) has a habit of playing this game with me, I sometimes do the same thing in return. If they complain about me playing games, I just point out their scurrilous arguments.



    Keep in mind that philosophers aren't the only ones who place great emphasis on the meaning of words. There are some very sophisticated propagandists - some of whom are knowledgeable about philosophy - who are very adept at manipulating even the simplest words.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

      – SmootQ
      3 hours ago











    • As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

      – Eric Nolan
      59 mins ago



















    2














    As @SmootQ notes some names for such argumentation may be "sealioning" and "red herring".



    Regarding sealioning, Bo Bennett describes this not as a logical fallacy, but rather as a pseudo-logical fallacy:




    A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. This is not a fallacy; it is more of a form of deception. As always, be careful in assuming you know the other person’s intent. On the surface, “sealioning” looks a lot like legitimate and honest Socratic inquiry.




    This would not meet all three of Bennett's characterizations of a logical fallacy although some might consider it a logical fallacy:






    1. It must be an error in reasoning, not a factual error.


    2. It must be commonly applied to an argument either in the form of the argument or the interpretation of the argument.


    3. It must be deceptive in that it often fools the average adult.




    However, Bennett considers a red herring to be a legitimate logical fallacy:




    Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.




    Bennett also cautions his readers against raising fallacy issues against their opponents' arguments:




    I caution you against correcting fallacies that your opponent might raise. As you will see in this book, fallacies go by many different names, and there are varying definitions for the fallacies. Except for a handful of fallacies that have been around since the time of Aristotle, most fallacies are under a continual redefining process that might change the name of the fallacy or the meaning of the fallacy. The bottom line is to focus on exactly what error in reasoning you are being accused of, and defend your reasoning—not a definition or name.




    Knowing about fallacies is mainly a form of self-defense, not a form of offense in an argumentation. If you point out a fallacy to your opponents, "what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself."





    Bo Bennett "Being a Smart-Ass" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/207/Being-a-Smart-Ass



    Bo Bennett "Pseudo-Logical Fallacies" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/6/Pseudo-Logical-Fallacies



    Bo Bennett "Red Herring" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring






    share|improve this answer


























    • I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

      – SmootQ
      3 hours ago











    • I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

      – SmootQ
      3 hours ago











    • @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

      – Frank Hubeny
      3 hours ago






    • 1





      agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

      – SmootQ
      3 hours ago











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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
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    Generally speaking, in philosophical discussions, it is often required to provide definitions for words that seem obvious otherwise, let me give you an example:



    When you say : The King of France is bold . Russell may ask you, what do you mean by The? (I will not talk about the theory of descriptions here).



    And Russell's question here would be legitimate, and it is significant to analytical philosophy, in what sense do you claim that the king of France such and such...?! (and this word in Russell's terms means more than it seems to mean)



    So, I would assume that an analytical philosopher is NOT committing a fallacy here, since I know that even the slightest of our common uses of language can still present some ambiguities at a deeper analytical level.



    So, back to your example:




    What do you mean by bite?




    I do not know of a particular example of a discussion where 'bite' would pose any definitional issues, but consider this dialogue:




    • A: Your dog bites

    • B: What do you mean by bites?

    • A: I mean bite, you know what I mean.


    In this situation, B must provide examples as to what definitional level he is talking about. And may reply:



    B: I mean, in what sense my dog bites? in the aggressive sense of biting people to hurt them? or in the sense of playful biting?



    As you can see here, there is still an ambiguity in the statement. But there are caveats, these factors can resolve the ambiguities, and add in implied meanings, even if A does not provide further details.




    • The tone and state in which A talks (unless they are texting)

    • B already knowing his dog is aggressive.


    So ambiguities only arise either when B knows his dog is not aggressive (so he suspects that 'bites' means playful biting), and when they are texting (so B cannot see how A feels about it).



    In case all ambiguities are resolved, but B is still asking questions about defining the word 'bite' , then you may refer to these fallacies:





    • Sealioning Asking questions and demands for endless answers.

    • It might be a Red Herring , if B drags the discussion towards 'bite' instead of talking about his dog's behavior.


    As well as fallacies suggested in the comments above.



    But remember, it might not be a fallacy if there are still ambiguities that need to be resolved, so that the parties know exactly what they are talking about.



    Edit



    A sentence is anything that is said, for example : Your dog bites people.



    But in philosophical discussions, philosophers (especially analytical philosophers and logicians) deal with propositions.



    You dog bites and Your dog bites are one sentence, that may refer to 2 (or more) propositions. Propositions are what you mean by a sentence, not what is articulated or expressed, but also what is implied.



    Many sentences can refer to one proposition, like I love Paris, J'aime Paris and 我喜欢巴黎...etc.



    And many propositions may be implied by one sentence, I love you is one sentence, that can imply many meanings (propositions) : Romantic love, parental love...etc.



    Edit 2



    As Frank's answer pointed out, sealioning is considered a pseudo-fallacy by Bo Bennett.






    share|improve this answer






























      5














      Generally speaking, in philosophical discussions, it is often required to provide definitions for words that seem obvious otherwise, let me give you an example:



      When you say : The King of France is bold . Russell may ask you, what do you mean by The? (I will not talk about the theory of descriptions here).



      And Russell's question here would be legitimate, and it is significant to analytical philosophy, in what sense do you claim that the king of France such and such...?! (and this word in Russell's terms means more than it seems to mean)



      So, I would assume that an analytical philosopher is NOT committing a fallacy here, since I know that even the slightest of our common uses of language can still present some ambiguities at a deeper analytical level.



      So, back to your example:




      What do you mean by bite?




      I do not know of a particular example of a discussion where 'bite' would pose any definitional issues, but consider this dialogue:




      • A: Your dog bites

      • B: What do you mean by bites?

      • A: I mean bite, you know what I mean.


      In this situation, B must provide examples as to what definitional level he is talking about. And may reply:



      B: I mean, in what sense my dog bites? in the aggressive sense of biting people to hurt them? or in the sense of playful biting?



      As you can see here, there is still an ambiguity in the statement. But there are caveats, these factors can resolve the ambiguities, and add in implied meanings, even if A does not provide further details.




      • The tone and state in which A talks (unless they are texting)

      • B already knowing his dog is aggressive.


      So ambiguities only arise either when B knows his dog is not aggressive (so he suspects that 'bites' means playful biting), and when they are texting (so B cannot see how A feels about it).



      In case all ambiguities are resolved, but B is still asking questions about defining the word 'bite' , then you may refer to these fallacies:





      • Sealioning Asking questions and demands for endless answers.

      • It might be a Red Herring , if B drags the discussion towards 'bite' instead of talking about his dog's behavior.


      As well as fallacies suggested in the comments above.



      But remember, it might not be a fallacy if there are still ambiguities that need to be resolved, so that the parties know exactly what they are talking about.



      Edit



      A sentence is anything that is said, for example : Your dog bites people.



      But in philosophical discussions, philosophers (especially analytical philosophers and logicians) deal with propositions.



      You dog bites and Your dog bites are one sentence, that may refer to 2 (or more) propositions. Propositions are what you mean by a sentence, not what is articulated or expressed, but also what is implied.



      Many sentences can refer to one proposition, like I love Paris, J'aime Paris and 我喜欢巴黎...etc.



      And many propositions may be implied by one sentence, I love you is one sentence, that can imply many meanings (propositions) : Romantic love, parental love...etc.



      Edit 2



      As Frank's answer pointed out, sealioning is considered a pseudo-fallacy by Bo Bennett.






      share|improve this answer




























        5












        5








        5







        Generally speaking, in philosophical discussions, it is often required to provide definitions for words that seem obvious otherwise, let me give you an example:



        When you say : The King of France is bold . Russell may ask you, what do you mean by The? (I will not talk about the theory of descriptions here).



        And Russell's question here would be legitimate, and it is significant to analytical philosophy, in what sense do you claim that the king of France such and such...?! (and this word in Russell's terms means more than it seems to mean)



        So, I would assume that an analytical philosopher is NOT committing a fallacy here, since I know that even the slightest of our common uses of language can still present some ambiguities at a deeper analytical level.



        So, back to your example:




        What do you mean by bite?




        I do not know of a particular example of a discussion where 'bite' would pose any definitional issues, but consider this dialogue:




        • A: Your dog bites

        • B: What do you mean by bites?

        • A: I mean bite, you know what I mean.


        In this situation, B must provide examples as to what definitional level he is talking about. And may reply:



        B: I mean, in what sense my dog bites? in the aggressive sense of biting people to hurt them? or in the sense of playful biting?



        As you can see here, there is still an ambiguity in the statement. But there are caveats, these factors can resolve the ambiguities, and add in implied meanings, even if A does not provide further details.




        • The tone and state in which A talks (unless they are texting)

        • B already knowing his dog is aggressive.


        So ambiguities only arise either when B knows his dog is not aggressive (so he suspects that 'bites' means playful biting), and when they are texting (so B cannot see how A feels about it).



        In case all ambiguities are resolved, but B is still asking questions about defining the word 'bite' , then you may refer to these fallacies:





        • Sealioning Asking questions and demands for endless answers.

        • It might be a Red Herring , if B drags the discussion towards 'bite' instead of talking about his dog's behavior.


        As well as fallacies suggested in the comments above.



        But remember, it might not be a fallacy if there are still ambiguities that need to be resolved, so that the parties know exactly what they are talking about.



        Edit



        A sentence is anything that is said, for example : Your dog bites people.



        But in philosophical discussions, philosophers (especially analytical philosophers and logicians) deal with propositions.



        You dog bites and Your dog bites are one sentence, that may refer to 2 (or more) propositions. Propositions are what you mean by a sentence, not what is articulated or expressed, but also what is implied.



        Many sentences can refer to one proposition, like I love Paris, J'aime Paris and 我喜欢巴黎...etc.



        And many propositions may be implied by one sentence, I love you is one sentence, that can imply many meanings (propositions) : Romantic love, parental love...etc.



        Edit 2



        As Frank's answer pointed out, sealioning is considered a pseudo-fallacy by Bo Bennett.






        share|improve this answer















        Generally speaking, in philosophical discussions, it is often required to provide definitions for words that seem obvious otherwise, let me give you an example:



        When you say : The King of France is bold . Russell may ask you, what do you mean by The? (I will not talk about the theory of descriptions here).



        And Russell's question here would be legitimate, and it is significant to analytical philosophy, in what sense do you claim that the king of France such and such...?! (and this word in Russell's terms means more than it seems to mean)



        So, I would assume that an analytical philosopher is NOT committing a fallacy here, since I know that even the slightest of our common uses of language can still present some ambiguities at a deeper analytical level.



        So, back to your example:




        What do you mean by bite?




        I do not know of a particular example of a discussion where 'bite' would pose any definitional issues, but consider this dialogue:




        • A: Your dog bites

        • B: What do you mean by bites?

        • A: I mean bite, you know what I mean.


        In this situation, B must provide examples as to what definitional level he is talking about. And may reply:



        B: I mean, in what sense my dog bites? in the aggressive sense of biting people to hurt them? or in the sense of playful biting?



        As you can see here, there is still an ambiguity in the statement. But there are caveats, these factors can resolve the ambiguities, and add in implied meanings, even if A does not provide further details.




        • The tone and state in which A talks (unless they are texting)

        • B already knowing his dog is aggressive.


        So ambiguities only arise either when B knows his dog is not aggressive (so he suspects that 'bites' means playful biting), and when they are texting (so B cannot see how A feels about it).



        In case all ambiguities are resolved, but B is still asking questions about defining the word 'bite' , then you may refer to these fallacies:





        • Sealioning Asking questions and demands for endless answers.

        • It might be a Red Herring , if B drags the discussion towards 'bite' instead of talking about his dog's behavior.


        As well as fallacies suggested in the comments above.



        But remember, it might not be a fallacy if there are still ambiguities that need to be resolved, so that the parties know exactly what they are talking about.



        Edit



        A sentence is anything that is said, for example : Your dog bites people.



        But in philosophical discussions, philosophers (especially analytical philosophers and logicians) deal with propositions.



        You dog bites and Your dog bites are one sentence, that may refer to 2 (or more) propositions. Propositions are what you mean by a sentence, not what is articulated or expressed, but also what is implied.



        Many sentences can refer to one proposition, like I love Paris, J'aime Paris and 我喜欢巴黎...etc.



        And many propositions may be implied by one sentence, I love you is one sentence, that can imply many meanings (propositions) : Romantic love, parental love...etc.



        Edit 2



        As Frank's answer pointed out, sealioning is considered a pseudo-fallacy by Bo Bennett.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 3 hours ago

























        answered 5 hours ago









        SmootQSmootQ

        1,323112




        1,323112























            4














            I up voted SmootQ's answer, but I want to elaborate on it a bit.



            As SmootQ suggested, the answer depends largely on the person making the argument and his or her intent.



            If the person asking for definitions is earnest, then there's no foul play involved.



            If the person is playing games with you, then there is foul play involved, though it doesn't really qualify as a fallacy.



            On another note, this can be a two-way game. If a person(s) has a habit of playing this game with me, I sometimes do the same thing in return. If they complain about me playing games, I just point out their scurrilous arguments.



            Keep in mind that philosophers aren't the only ones who place great emphasis on the meaning of words. There are some very sophisticated propagandists - some of whom are knowledgeable about philosophy - who are very adept at manipulating even the simplest words.






            share|improve this answer
























            • Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

              – Eric Nolan
              59 mins ago
















            4














            I up voted SmootQ's answer, but I want to elaborate on it a bit.



            As SmootQ suggested, the answer depends largely on the person making the argument and his or her intent.



            If the person asking for definitions is earnest, then there's no foul play involved.



            If the person is playing games with you, then there is foul play involved, though it doesn't really qualify as a fallacy.



            On another note, this can be a two-way game. If a person(s) has a habit of playing this game with me, I sometimes do the same thing in return. If they complain about me playing games, I just point out their scurrilous arguments.



            Keep in mind that philosophers aren't the only ones who place great emphasis on the meaning of words. There are some very sophisticated propagandists - some of whom are knowledgeable about philosophy - who are very adept at manipulating even the simplest words.






            share|improve this answer
























            • Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

              – Eric Nolan
              59 mins ago














            4












            4








            4







            I up voted SmootQ's answer, but I want to elaborate on it a bit.



            As SmootQ suggested, the answer depends largely on the person making the argument and his or her intent.



            If the person asking for definitions is earnest, then there's no foul play involved.



            If the person is playing games with you, then there is foul play involved, though it doesn't really qualify as a fallacy.



            On another note, this can be a two-way game. If a person(s) has a habit of playing this game with me, I sometimes do the same thing in return. If they complain about me playing games, I just point out their scurrilous arguments.



            Keep in mind that philosophers aren't the only ones who place great emphasis on the meaning of words. There are some very sophisticated propagandists - some of whom are knowledgeable about philosophy - who are very adept at manipulating even the simplest words.






            share|improve this answer













            I up voted SmootQ's answer, but I want to elaborate on it a bit.



            As SmootQ suggested, the answer depends largely on the person making the argument and his or her intent.



            If the person asking for definitions is earnest, then there's no foul play involved.



            If the person is playing games with you, then there is foul play involved, though it doesn't really qualify as a fallacy.



            On another note, this can be a two-way game. If a person(s) has a habit of playing this game with me, I sometimes do the same thing in return. If they complain about me playing games, I just point out their scurrilous arguments.



            Keep in mind that philosophers aren't the only ones who place great emphasis on the meaning of words. There are some very sophisticated propagandists - some of whom are knowledgeable about philosophy - who are very adept at manipulating even the simplest words.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 4 hours ago









            David BlomstromDavid Blomstrom

            3,0381917




            3,0381917













            • Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

              – Eric Nolan
              59 mins ago



















            • Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

              – Eric Nolan
              59 mins ago

















            Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago





            Yes I agree , and somrtimes it is very difficult to point out when someone is playing games with you, albeit these games manifest themselves as red herrings,thanks.. +1

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago













            As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

            – Eric Nolan
            59 mins ago





            As far as this being a two way thing I have a somewhat different take. Sometimes people make statements that are largely empty of meaning and get outraged when you ask them for definitions. For example "we need to take back control" is designed to generate either support "of course we do" or an answer that can be ridiculed "you really don't think we should be in control of our own lives? what sort of person are you?". I might ask that person what they mean by 'need' (what happens if we don't) and 'control' (what do they think we don't control now and what form would 'control' take).

            – Eric Nolan
            59 mins ago











            2














            As @SmootQ notes some names for such argumentation may be "sealioning" and "red herring".



            Regarding sealioning, Bo Bennett describes this not as a logical fallacy, but rather as a pseudo-logical fallacy:




            A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. This is not a fallacy; it is more of a form of deception. As always, be careful in assuming you know the other person’s intent. On the surface, “sealioning” looks a lot like legitimate and honest Socratic inquiry.




            This would not meet all three of Bennett's characterizations of a logical fallacy although some might consider it a logical fallacy:






            1. It must be an error in reasoning, not a factual error.


            2. It must be commonly applied to an argument either in the form of the argument or the interpretation of the argument.


            3. It must be deceptive in that it often fools the average adult.




            However, Bennett considers a red herring to be a legitimate logical fallacy:




            Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.




            Bennett also cautions his readers against raising fallacy issues against their opponents' arguments:




            I caution you against correcting fallacies that your opponent might raise. As you will see in this book, fallacies go by many different names, and there are varying definitions for the fallacies. Except for a handful of fallacies that have been around since the time of Aristotle, most fallacies are under a continual redefining process that might change the name of the fallacy or the meaning of the fallacy. The bottom line is to focus on exactly what error in reasoning you are being accused of, and defend your reasoning—not a definition or name.




            Knowing about fallacies is mainly a form of self-defense, not a form of offense in an argumentation. If you point out a fallacy to your opponents, "what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself."





            Bo Bennett "Being a Smart-Ass" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/207/Being-a-Smart-Ass



            Bo Bennett "Pseudo-Logical Fallacies" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/6/Pseudo-Logical-Fallacies



            Bo Bennett "Red Herring" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring






            share|improve this answer


























            • I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

              – Frank Hubeny
              3 hours ago






            • 1





              agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago
















            2














            As @SmootQ notes some names for such argumentation may be "sealioning" and "red herring".



            Regarding sealioning, Bo Bennett describes this not as a logical fallacy, but rather as a pseudo-logical fallacy:




            A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. This is not a fallacy; it is more of a form of deception. As always, be careful in assuming you know the other person’s intent. On the surface, “sealioning” looks a lot like legitimate and honest Socratic inquiry.




            This would not meet all three of Bennett's characterizations of a logical fallacy although some might consider it a logical fallacy:






            1. It must be an error in reasoning, not a factual error.


            2. It must be commonly applied to an argument either in the form of the argument or the interpretation of the argument.


            3. It must be deceptive in that it often fools the average adult.




            However, Bennett considers a red herring to be a legitimate logical fallacy:




            Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.




            Bennett also cautions his readers against raising fallacy issues against their opponents' arguments:




            I caution you against correcting fallacies that your opponent might raise. As you will see in this book, fallacies go by many different names, and there are varying definitions for the fallacies. Except for a handful of fallacies that have been around since the time of Aristotle, most fallacies are under a continual redefining process that might change the name of the fallacy or the meaning of the fallacy. The bottom line is to focus on exactly what error in reasoning you are being accused of, and defend your reasoning—not a definition or name.




            Knowing about fallacies is mainly a form of self-defense, not a form of offense in an argumentation. If you point out a fallacy to your opponents, "what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself."





            Bo Bennett "Being a Smart-Ass" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/207/Being-a-Smart-Ass



            Bo Bennett "Pseudo-Logical Fallacies" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/6/Pseudo-Logical-Fallacies



            Bo Bennett "Red Herring" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring






            share|improve this answer


























            • I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

              – Frank Hubeny
              3 hours ago






            • 1





              agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago














            2












            2








            2







            As @SmootQ notes some names for such argumentation may be "sealioning" and "red herring".



            Regarding sealioning, Bo Bennett describes this not as a logical fallacy, but rather as a pseudo-logical fallacy:




            A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. This is not a fallacy; it is more of a form of deception. As always, be careful in assuming you know the other person’s intent. On the surface, “sealioning” looks a lot like legitimate and honest Socratic inquiry.




            This would not meet all three of Bennett's characterizations of a logical fallacy although some might consider it a logical fallacy:






            1. It must be an error in reasoning, not a factual error.


            2. It must be commonly applied to an argument either in the form of the argument or the interpretation of the argument.


            3. It must be deceptive in that it often fools the average adult.




            However, Bennett considers a red herring to be a legitimate logical fallacy:




            Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.




            Bennett also cautions his readers against raising fallacy issues against their opponents' arguments:




            I caution you against correcting fallacies that your opponent might raise. As you will see in this book, fallacies go by many different names, and there are varying definitions for the fallacies. Except for a handful of fallacies that have been around since the time of Aristotle, most fallacies are under a continual redefining process that might change the name of the fallacy or the meaning of the fallacy. The bottom line is to focus on exactly what error in reasoning you are being accused of, and defend your reasoning—not a definition or name.




            Knowing about fallacies is mainly a form of self-defense, not a form of offense in an argumentation. If you point out a fallacy to your opponents, "what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself."





            Bo Bennett "Being a Smart-Ass" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/207/Being-a-Smart-Ass



            Bo Bennett "Pseudo-Logical Fallacies" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/6/Pseudo-Logical-Fallacies



            Bo Bennett "Red Herring" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring






            share|improve this answer















            As @SmootQ notes some names for such argumentation may be "sealioning" and "red herring".



            Regarding sealioning, Bo Bennett describes this not as a logical fallacy, but rather as a pseudo-logical fallacy:




            A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. This is not a fallacy; it is more of a form of deception. As always, be careful in assuming you know the other person’s intent. On the surface, “sealioning” looks a lot like legitimate and honest Socratic inquiry.




            This would not meet all three of Bennett's characterizations of a logical fallacy although some might consider it a logical fallacy:






            1. It must be an error in reasoning, not a factual error.


            2. It must be commonly applied to an argument either in the form of the argument or the interpretation of the argument.


            3. It must be deceptive in that it often fools the average adult.




            However, Bennett considers a red herring to be a legitimate logical fallacy:




            Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.




            Bennett also cautions his readers against raising fallacy issues against their opponents' arguments:




            I caution you against correcting fallacies that your opponent might raise. As you will see in this book, fallacies go by many different names, and there are varying definitions for the fallacies. Except for a handful of fallacies that have been around since the time of Aristotle, most fallacies are under a continual redefining process that might change the name of the fallacy or the meaning of the fallacy. The bottom line is to focus on exactly what error in reasoning you are being accused of, and defend your reasoning—not a definition or name.




            Knowing about fallacies is mainly a form of self-defense, not a form of offense in an argumentation. If you point out a fallacy to your opponents, "what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself."





            Bo Bennett "Being a Smart-Ass" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/207/Being-a-Smart-Ass



            Bo Bennett "Pseudo-Logical Fallacies" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/6/Pseudo-Logical-Fallacies



            Bo Bennett "Red Herring" Logically Fallacious https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 3 hours ago

























            answered 3 hours ago









            Frank HubenyFrank Hubeny

            8,35951548




            8,35951548













            • I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

              – Frank Hubeny
              3 hours ago






            • 1





              agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago



















            • I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago











            • @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

              – Frank Hubeny
              3 hours ago






            • 1





              agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

              – SmootQ
              3 hours ago

















            I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago





            I couldn't agree more, sometimes it looks like it is difficult to approximate a fallacy, but here : red herring is the more obvious consequence, thank you +1

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago













            I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago





            I didn't now that bo bennett considers sealioning a pseudofallacy, I will check it out, thanks again

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago













            @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

            – Frank Hubeny
            3 hours ago





            @SmootQ Even if Bennett does not consider it a legitimate fallacy, it is worth defending oneself against it because others might consider it so. I also agree with you that red herring fits the best to what the OP described.

            – Frank Hubeny
            3 hours ago




            1




            1





            agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago





            agree, but the red herring is not the exact fallacy, it is just a byproduct of it. If one continues asking questions about definitions, then that would lead to red herrings.

            – SmootQ
            3 hours ago










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