I have trouble understanding this fallacy: “If A, then B. Therefore if not-B, then not-A.”Why do...

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I have trouble understanding this fallacy: “If A, then B. Therefore if not-B, then not-A.”


Why do Conditional Semantics matter?What kind of conditional does Nozick use in his theory of knowledge?Are all sufficient conditions necessary?If G is absent whenever F is absent, then F is a sufficient condition for GIf F is a sufficient condition for G, is lacking G a sufficient condition for lacking F?For preventing something, why do we usually search for the Necessary and not the Sufficient Conditions?Is there a logical system that accounts for cause and effect relationship?What is the difference between Conditional and Logical consequence in everyday language?What is the name of this fallacy? (not A imples the value of B is unknown, therefore A)What fallacy accepts P and P → Q but rejects Q (denies modus ponens)?













14















About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










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  • You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

    – coredump
    3 hours ago
















14















About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










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  • You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

    – coredump
    3 hours ago














14












14








14


5






About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










share|improve this question







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About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?







logic fallacies






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asked Feb 24 at 10:25









user18894user18894

77113




77113




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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    yesterday











  • You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

    – coredump
    3 hours ago



















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    yesterday











  • You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

    – coredump
    3 hours ago

















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Geoffrey Thomas
yesterday





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Geoffrey Thomas
yesterday













You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

– coredump
3 hours ago





You know "A->B". Then you assume "Not-B" is true. If A were true, you would have both "B" and "Not-B", so necessarily, A is false.

– coredump
3 hours ago










16 Answers
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43














There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




Raining -> Umbrella




However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



Let's apply it to your example:




"In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



So let's word it differently:




If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



InternetConnected -> RouterOn



A -> B




But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



Not(B) -> Not(A)




Hope this helps! :)



Edit: My "rain" example was criticized for clarity, since the real-life relationship isn't as straightforward. (Fair enough.) We can apply the same thing to dogs, though, and it works the same way but exploits the IS-A/inheritance relationship you're probably familiar with if you have a CS background.




Corgi => Dog




All corgis are dogs. But are all dogs corgis? No! However, we DO know that if it's not a dog, it's clearly not a Corgi (since a Corgi is a type of dog).




Not(Dog) => Not(Corgi)




Also, to echo the other users: this is not a fallacy. You can find more about logical fallacies here.






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    14














    ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



    By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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      13














      You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



      Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



      Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



      Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



      I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
      That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






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      • 1





        That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

        – Carl Witthoft
        21 hours ago



















      8














      Your confusion might stem from the fact that implications in propositional logic don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




      If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




      This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




      If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




      This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



      We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



      | a | b | a -> b |
      +---+---+--------+
      | F | F | T |
      | F | T | T |
      | T | F | F |
      | T | T | T |


      So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




      1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

      2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

      3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

      4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


      Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



      | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
      +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
      | F | F | T | T | T | T |
      | F | T | T | F | T | T |
      | T | F | F | T | F | F |
      | T | T | T | F | F | T |


      The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are logically equivalent.



      In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




      If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




      This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




      1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

      2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

      3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

      4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


      In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




      If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].






      (My source for everything in this answer is the first chapter of "Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications" by Kenneth H. Rosen, but I've added a few Wikipedia links.)






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        7














        No fallacy



        Router necessary for internet


        Can be restated



        Internet sufficient for router


        Let's restate the second more elaborately



        Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
        that the router (has to be) working




        In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens





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          5














          As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




          Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




          What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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            3














            It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



            Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



            A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



            B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



            Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



            But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



            Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



            In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






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              3














              "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



              The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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                3














                Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






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                • 1





                  This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                  – HolKann
                  17 hours ago



















                1














                Yes, you are confused due to the use of some natural language which are by nature all ambiguous/not precise (but that makes them very powerful!). Ancient philosophers were strongly interested on this problem and that leads to formal logic.



                For contrapositive the real life example could be:




                if it's raining then the ground is wet.




                And its contrapositive formulæ :




                if the ground is not wet then it is not raining.




                Sorry for @eurieka's answer but his example is not so good due to the fact that the real life relation in between rain and umbrella use is not so direct (I never use umbrella raining or not). While it is more easy to agree on rain and wet ground.



                In formal logic you can't repudiate a contrapositive, if you think the contrapositive is not correct then the initial proposition is also wrong.



                In formal logic, you can't state something like : router on implies internet accessible, and then after add another condition about provider state. If it is the case, then you need to reformulate your problem taking into account everything.






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                  1














                  "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



                  A == Duck



                  B == Swim.



                  If A, then B == If it's a Duck then it can swim.



                  if not-B, then not-A == If this little guy can't swim, then it cannot be a duck.



                  Why? Because a duck can swim! how can it be a duck but cannot swim?



                  Isn't this logic easy to see?






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                  • It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                    – Frank Hubeny
                    yesterday





















                  1














                  As others have said, this is not a fallacy.



                  Visuals can make this easier without the need to follow potentially confusing logical progressions, or the need to know any logical terms. Here's a Venn diagram:



                  Venn FTW




                  • "If A then B" means that A is a subset of B.

                  • Anything outside of B ("not-B") is clearly "not-A"

                  • For good measure, if you also want to consider "not-A", this means "everything outside of A", which could be B, but could also mean "not-B".




                  Extending this to the router & internet example in the question:



                  Router and internet Venn




                  • The internet is only available to you if your router is on

                  • It is very possible to have no internet availability, even when your router is on

                  • The internet is certainly not available to you if your router/modem is not on






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                    1














                    "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A"



                    This is not a fallacy because what it is stating is equivalent to this:



                    "If there is A, then there must be a B--every time. Therefore, if there is no B, there could not have been an A, because had there been an A the rule is that there must be a B. So in any case where there is no B, there must have been no A."






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                      1














                      You probably have mistranslated the statement :




                      "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                      there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                      It is not a fallacy, but rather a mistranslation.



                      If you have something that comes before therefore, it is already a premise.



                      Your premise:




                      If A then B




                      Is already supposed to be the case. It does not say that there are other premises that contribute to the conditional.



                      It is analogous to: If it is raining then there are clouds.



                      And we can infer from it that if there are no clouds then there is not raining.



                      So, there is no fallacy here.



                      But remember this : Deductive reasoning is about the logical form of your argument.



                      If we suppose (just suppose) that the conditional if A then B is true, then it follows that the conditional If not-B then not-A is true.



                      Suppose that the conditional if A then B lacks C, which is also needed for B to take place.



                      Well, that's not deductive problem (not a non-sequitur), but it is a problem related either to the truth or reliability of the premise, or simply a mistranslation as I suggested.



                      If I say that If you worked then you did make money , then it is the same as if I say if you did not make money, then you did not work.



                      But whether work is sufficient to make money or not, that's another subject. Deductive arguments are only about the truth of the conclusion, given the premises are true.



                      Now back to your example :




                      "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                      there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                      In this case in order to have internet (B) the router must be on (A) should not be translated to if A then B , but instead if B then A.



                      If there is internet -B- then the router is ON -A-.



                      That is the correct conditional here :




                      • If there is internet then the router is On

                      • therefore, if the router is not-On then there is no-Internet.


                      So, your premise was mistranslated .



                      Consider the clouds example, to see what I mean : Even though clouds can cause rain (with other factors), it does not mean that clouds should be the antecedent in a conditional, so if there are clouds then it is raining is a false premise.



                      But it means that if it rains then there are clouds, so the cause should be a consequent, not an antecedent. Think about it.






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                      • 1





                        Are you sure?

                        – JBentley
                        23 hours ago











                      • Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                        – SmootQ
                        23 hours ago











                      • True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                        – JBentley
                        23 hours ago













                      • No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                        – SmootQ
                        21 hours ago



















                      0














                      Another way of looking at this is with a diagram.



                      In your example, “If A, then B” is consistent with A and B both being true, or A being false and B being anything — but not with A being true and B being false.  You could draw that as:



                          A:║ true │ false
                      B ║ │
                      ══════╬══════╪══════
                      true ║ ✔️ │ ✔️
                      ──────╫──────┼──────
                      false ║ ✘✘✘ │ ✔️


                      But that's exactly the same diagram you'd get for “If not-B then not-A.”  So the two are equivalent.



                      (As per other answers, this assumes classical two-valued logic, of course.  This is basically a Karnaugh map, though that's mainly used for simplifying boolean expressions.  You could alternatively use a truth table, as per other answers, but I find this diagram easier to follow.)






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                        0














                        I think that you need to express the problem as so: If A->B implies that B will happen ALWAYS when A has occurred. Then, if B has not occurred, you are sure that A has not occurred.






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                          43














                          There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                          What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                          Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                          Raining -> Umbrella




                          However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                          But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                          Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                          And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                          Let's apply it to your example:




                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                          This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                          So let's word it differently:




                          If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                          InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                          A -> B




                          But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                          Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                          Not(B) -> Not(A)




                          Hope this helps! :)



                          Edit: My "rain" example was criticized for clarity, since the real-life relationship isn't as straightforward. (Fair enough.) We can apply the same thing to dogs, though, and it works the same way but exploits the IS-A/inheritance relationship you're probably familiar with if you have a CS background.




                          Corgi => Dog




                          All corgis are dogs. But are all dogs corgis? No! However, we DO know that if it's not a dog, it's clearly not a Corgi (since a Corgi is a type of dog).




                          Not(Dog) => Not(Corgi)




                          Also, to echo the other users: this is not a fallacy. You can find more about logical fallacies here.






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                            43














                            There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                            What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                            Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                            Raining -> Umbrella




                            However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                            But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                            Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                            And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                            Let's apply it to your example:




                            "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                            there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                            This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                            So let's word it differently:




                            If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                            InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                            A -> B




                            But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                            Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                            Not(B) -> Not(A)




                            Hope this helps! :)



                            Edit: My "rain" example was criticized for clarity, since the real-life relationship isn't as straightforward. (Fair enough.) We can apply the same thing to dogs, though, and it works the same way but exploits the IS-A/inheritance relationship you're probably familiar with if you have a CS background.




                            Corgi => Dog




                            All corgis are dogs. But are all dogs corgis? No! However, we DO know that if it's not a dog, it's clearly not a Corgi (since a Corgi is a type of dog).




                            Not(Dog) => Not(Corgi)




                            Also, to echo the other users: this is not a fallacy. You can find more about logical fallacies here.






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                              43












                              43








                              43







                              There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                              What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                              Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                              Raining -> Umbrella




                              However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                              But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                              Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                              And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                              Let's apply it to your example:




                              "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                              there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                              This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                              So let's word it differently:




                              If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                              InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                              A -> B




                              But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                              Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                              Not(B) -> Not(A)




                              Hope this helps! :)



                              Edit: My "rain" example was criticized for clarity, since the real-life relationship isn't as straightforward. (Fair enough.) We can apply the same thing to dogs, though, and it works the same way but exploits the IS-A/inheritance relationship you're probably familiar with if you have a CS background.




                              Corgi => Dog




                              All corgis are dogs. But are all dogs corgis? No! However, we DO know that if it's not a dog, it's clearly not a Corgi (since a Corgi is a type of dog).




                              Not(Dog) => Not(Corgi)




                              Also, to echo the other users: this is not a fallacy. You can find more about logical fallacies here.






                              share|improve this answer










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                              There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                              What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                              Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                              Raining -> Umbrella




                              However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                              But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                              Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                              And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                              Let's apply it to your example:




                              "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                              there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                              This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                              So let's word it differently:




                              If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                              InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                              A -> B




                              But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                              Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                              Not(B) -> Not(A)




                              Hope this helps! :)



                              Edit: My "rain" example was criticized for clarity, since the real-life relationship isn't as straightforward. (Fair enough.) We can apply the same thing to dogs, though, and it works the same way but exploits the IS-A/inheritance relationship you're probably familiar with if you have a CS background.




                              Corgi => Dog




                              All corgis are dogs. But are all dogs corgis? No! However, we DO know that if it's not a dog, it's clearly not a Corgi (since a Corgi is a type of dog).




                              Not(Dog) => Not(Corgi)




                              Also, to echo the other users: this is not a fallacy. You can find more about logical fallacies here.







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                              edited yesterday





















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                              answered 2 days ago









                              euriekaeurieka

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                                  14














                                  ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                                  By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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                                    14














                                    ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                                    By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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                                      14












                                      14








                                      14







                                      ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                                      By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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                                      ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                                      By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).







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                                      answered Feb 24 at 12:01









                                      danielloiddanielloid

                                      2412




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                                          13














                                          You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                                          Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                                          Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                                          Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                                          I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                                          That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






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                                          • 1





                                            That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                            – Carl Witthoft
                                            21 hours ago
















                                          13














                                          You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                                          Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                                          Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                                          Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                                          I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                                          That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






                                          share|improve this answer








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                                          • 1





                                            That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                            – Carl Witthoft
                                            21 hours ago














                                          13












                                          13








                                          13







                                          You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                                          Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                                          Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                                          Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                                          I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                                          That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






                                          share|improve this answer








                                          New contributor




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                                          You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                                          Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                                          Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                                          Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                                          I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                                          That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.







                                          share|improve this answer








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                                          answered 2 days ago









                                          Moritz KMoritz K

                                          1392




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                                          • 1





                                            That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                            – Carl Witthoft
                                            21 hours ago














                                          • 1





                                            That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                            – Carl Witthoft
                                            21 hours ago








                                          1




                                          1





                                          That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                          – Carl Witthoft
                                          21 hours ago





                                          That's a strange way of contradicting yourself. A ==> B strictly forces !B ==> !A . That's what the OP was asking... unless you're just pointing out that he contradicted his own question.

                                          – Carl Witthoft
                                          21 hours ago











                                          8














                                          Your confusion might stem from the fact that implications in propositional logic don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                          If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                          This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                          If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                          This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                          We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                          | a | b | a -> b |
                                          +---+---+--------+
                                          | F | F | T |
                                          | F | T | T |
                                          | T | F | F |
                                          | T | T | T |


                                          So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                          1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                          2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                          3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                          4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                          Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                          | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                          +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                          | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                          | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                          | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                          | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                          The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are logically equivalent.



                                          In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                          If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                          This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                          1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                          2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                          3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                          4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                          In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                          If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].






                                          (My source for everything in this answer is the first chapter of "Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications" by Kenneth H. Rosen, but I've added a few Wikipedia links.)






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                                            8














                                            Your confusion might stem from the fact that implications in propositional logic don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                            If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                            This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                            If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                            This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                            We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                            | a | b | a -> b |
                                            +---+---+--------+
                                            | F | F | T |
                                            | F | T | T |
                                            | T | F | F |
                                            | T | T | T |


                                            So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                            1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                            2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                            3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                            4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                            Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                            | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                            +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                            | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                            | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                            | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                            | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                            The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are logically equivalent.



                                            In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                            If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                            This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                            1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                            2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                            3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                            4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                            In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                            If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].






                                            (My source for everything in this answer is the first chapter of "Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications" by Kenneth H. Rosen, but I've added a few Wikipedia links.)






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                                              8












                                              8








                                              8







                                              Your confusion might stem from the fact that implications in propositional logic don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                              If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                              This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                              If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                              This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                              We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                              | a | b | a -> b |
                                              +---+---+--------+
                                              | F | F | T |
                                              | F | T | T |
                                              | T | F | F |
                                              | T | T | T |


                                              So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                              1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                              2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                              3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                              4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                              Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                              | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                              +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                              | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                              | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                              | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                              | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                              The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are logically equivalent.



                                              In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                              If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                              This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                              1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                              2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                              3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                              4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                              In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                              If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].






                                              (My source for everything in this answer is the first chapter of "Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications" by Kenneth H. Rosen, but I've added a few Wikipedia links.)






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                                              Your confusion might stem from the fact that implications in propositional logic don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                              If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                              This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                              If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                              This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                              We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                              | a | b | a -> b |
                                              +---+---+--------+
                                              | F | F | T |
                                              | F | T | T |
                                              | T | F | F |
                                              | T | T | T |


                                              So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                              1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                              2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                              3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                              4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                              Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                              | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                              +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                              | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                              | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                              | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                              | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                              The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are logically equivalent.



                                              In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                              If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                              This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                              1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                              2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                              3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                              4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                              In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                              If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].






                                              (My source for everything in this answer is the first chapter of "Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications" by Kenneth H. Rosen, but I've added a few Wikipedia links.)







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                                              edited yesterday





















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                                              answered 2 days ago









                                              Aasmund EldhusetAasmund Eldhuset

                                              1813




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                                                  7














                                                  No fallacy



                                                  Router necessary for internet


                                                  Can be restated



                                                  Internet sufficient for router


                                                  Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                                  Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                                  that the router (has to be) working




                                                  In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens





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                                                    7














                                                    No fallacy



                                                    Router necessary for internet


                                                    Can be restated



                                                    Internet sufficient for router


                                                    Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                                    Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                                    that the router (has to be) working




                                                    In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens





                                                    share










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                                                      7












                                                      7








                                                      7







                                                      No fallacy



                                                      Router necessary for internet


                                                      Can be restated



                                                      Internet sufficient for router


                                                      Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                                      Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                                      that the router (has to be) working




                                                      In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens





                                                      share










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                                                      No fallacy



                                                      Router necessary for internet


                                                      Can be restated



                                                      Internet sufficient for router


                                                      Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                                      Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                                      that the router (has to be) working




                                                      In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens






                                                      share










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                                                      share


                                                      share








                                                      edited Feb 24 at 11:10





















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                                                      answered Feb 24 at 10:59









                                                      RusiRusi

                                                      1062




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                                                          5














                                                          As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                          Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                          What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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                                                            5














                                                            As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                            Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                            What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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                                                              5












                                                              5








                                                              5







                                                              As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                              Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                              What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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                                                              As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                              Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                              What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.







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                                                              answered 2 days ago









                                                              Mike MaxwellMike Maxwell

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                                                                  3














                                                                  It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                  Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                  A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                  B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                  Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                  But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                  Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                  In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                  share|improve this answer






























                                                                    3














                                                                    It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                    Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                    A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                    B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                    Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                    But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                    Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                    In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                    share|improve this answer




























                                                                      3












                                                                      3








                                                                      3







                                                                      It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                      Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                      A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                      B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                      Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                      But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                      Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                      In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                      share|improve this answer















                                                                      It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                      Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                      A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                      B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                      Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                      But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                      Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                      In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."







                                                                      share|improve this answer














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                                                                      edited 2 days ago

























                                                                      answered 2 days ago









                                                                      Ben CrowellBen Crowell

                                                                      22126




                                                                      22126























                                                                          3














                                                                          "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                                                          The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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                                                                            3














                                                                            "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                                                            The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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                                                                              3












                                                                              3








                                                                              3







                                                                              "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                                                              The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






                                                                              share|improve this answer








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                                                                              "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                                                              The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)







                                                                              share|improve this answer








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                                                                              answered 2 days ago









                                                                              Kyle MillerKyle Miller

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                                                                                  3














                                                                                  Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                                  "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                                  "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






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                                                                                  • 1





                                                                                    This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                    – HolKann
                                                                                    17 hours ago
















                                                                                  3














                                                                                  Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                                  "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                                  "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






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                                                                                  • 1





                                                                                    This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                    – HolKann
                                                                                    17 hours ago














                                                                                  3












                                                                                  3








                                                                                  3







                                                                                  Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                                  "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                                  "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






                                                                                  share|improve this answer













                                                                                  Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                                  "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                                  "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."







                                                                                  share|improve this answer












                                                                                  share|improve this answer



                                                                                  share|improve this answer










                                                                                  answered 2 days ago









                                                                                  TaemyrTaemyr

                                                                                  1814




                                                                                  1814








                                                                                  • 1





                                                                                    This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                    – HolKann
                                                                                    17 hours ago














                                                                                  • 1





                                                                                    This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                    – HolKann
                                                                                    17 hours ago








                                                                                  1




                                                                                  1





                                                                                  This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                  – HolKann
                                                                                  17 hours ago





                                                                                  This is the crux of the matter. "if A then B" does not "require other conditions for B". It simply states that if A holds, then B must also hold.

                                                                                  – HolKann
                                                                                  17 hours ago











                                                                                  1














                                                                                  Yes, you are confused due to the use of some natural language which are by nature all ambiguous/not precise (but that makes them very powerful!). Ancient philosophers were strongly interested on this problem and that leads to formal logic.



                                                                                  For contrapositive the real life example could be:




                                                                                  if it's raining then the ground is wet.




                                                                                  And its contrapositive formulæ :




                                                                                  if the ground is not wet then it is not raining.




                                                                                  Sorry for @eurieka's answer but his example is not so good due to the fact that the real life relation in between rain and umbrella use is not so direct (I never use umbrella raining or not). While it is more easy to agree on rain and wet ground.



                                                                                  In formal logic you can't repudiate a contrapositive, if you think the contrapositive is not correct then the initial proposition is also wrong.



                                                                                  In formal logic, you can't state something like : router on implies internet accessible, and then after add another condition about provider state. If it is the case, then you need to reformulate your problem taking into account everything.






                                                                                  share|improve this answer








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                                                                                    1














                                                                                    Yes, you are confused due to the use of some natural language which are by nature all ambiguous/not precise (but that makes them very powerful!). Ancient philosophers were strongly interested on this problem and that leads to formal logic.



                                                                                    For contrapositive the real life example could be:




                                                                                    if it's raining then the ground is wet.




                                                                                    And its contrapositive formulæ :




                                                                                    if the ground is not wet then it is not raining.




                                                                                    Sorry for @eurieka's answer but his example is not so good due to the fact that the real life relation in between rain and umbrella use is not so direct (I never use umbrella raining or not). While it is more easy to agree on rain and wet ground.



                                                                                    In formal logic you can't repudiate a contrapositive, if you think the contrapositive is not correct then the initial proposition is also wrong.



                                                                                    In formal logic, you can't state something like : router on implies internet accessible, and then after add another condition about provider state. If it is the case, then you need to reformulate your problem taking into account everything.






                                                                                    share|improve this answer








                                                                                    New contributor




                                                                                    Jean-Baptiste Yunès is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                      1












                                                                                      1








                                                                                      1







                                                                                      Yes, you are confused due to the use of some natural language which are by nature all ambiguous/not precise (but that makes them very powerful!). Ancient philosophers were strongly interested on this problem and that leads to formal logic.



                                                                                      For contrapositive the real life example could be:




                                                                                      if it's raining then the ground is wet.




                                                                                      And its contrapositive formulæ :




                                                                                      if the ground is not wet then it is not raining.




                                                                                      Sorry for @eurieka's answer but his example is not so good due to the fact that the real life relation in between rain and umbrella use is not so direct (I never use umbrella raining or not). While it is more easy to agree on rain and wet ground.



                                                                                      In formal logic you can't repudiate a contrapositive, if you think the contrapositive is not correct then the initial proposition is also wrong.



                                                                                      In formal logic, you can't state something like : router on implies internet accessible, and then after add another condition about provider state. If it is the case, then you need to reformulate your problem taking into account everything.






                                                                                      share|improve this answer








                                                                                      New contributor




                                                                                      Jean-Baptiste Yunès is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                                      Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                                                                      Yes, you are confused due to the use of some natural language which are by nature all ambiguous/not precise (but that makes them very powerful!). Ancient philosophers were strongly interested on this problem and that leads to formal logic.



                                                                                      For contrapositive the real life example could be:




                                                                                      if it's raining then the ground is wet.




                                                                                      And its contrapositive formulæ :




                                                                                      if the ground is not wet then it is not raining.




                                                                                      Sorry for @eurieka's answer but his example is not so good due to the fact that the real life relation in between rain and umbrella use is not so direct (I never use umbrella raining or not). While it is more easy to agree on rain and wet ground.



                                                                                      In formal logic you can't repudiate a contrapositive, if you think the contrapositive is not correct then the initial proposition is also wrong.



                                                                                      In formal logic, you can't state something like : router on implies internet accessible, and then after add another condition about provider state. If it is the case, then you need to reformulate your problem taking into account everything.







                                                                                      share|improve this answer








                                                                                      New contributor




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                                                                                      share|improve this answer



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                                                                                      answered yesterday









                                                                                      Jean-Baptiste YunèsJean-Baptiste Yunès

                                                                                      1112




                                                                                      1112




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                                                                                          1














                                                                                          "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



                                                                                          A == Duck



                                                                                          B == Swim.



                                                                                          If A, then B == If it's a Duck then it can swim.



                                                                                          if not-B, then not-A == If this little guy can't swim, then it cannot be a duck.



                                                                                          Why? Because a duck can swim! how can it be a duck but cannot swim?



                                                                                          Isn't this logic easy to see?






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                                                                                          • It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                            – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                            yesterday


















                                                                                          1














                                                                                          "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



                                                                                          A == Duck



                                                                                          B == Swim.



                                                                                          If A, then B == If it's a Duck then it can swim.



                                                                                          if not-B, then not-A == If this little guy can't swim, then it cannot be a duck.



                                                                                          Why? Because a duck can swim! how can it be a duck but cannot swim?



                                                                                          Isn't this logic easy to see?






                                                                                          share|improve this answer








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                                                                                          • It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                            – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                            yesterday
















                                                                                          1












                                                                                          1








                                                                                          1







                                                                                          "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



                                                                                          A == Duck



                                                                                          B == Swim.



                                                                                          If A, then B == If it's a Duck then it can swim.



                                                                                          if not-B, then not-A == If this little guy can't swim, then it cannot be a duck.



                                                                                          Why? Because a duck can swim! how can it be a duck but cannot swim?



                                                                                          Isn't this logic easy to see?






                                                                                          share|improve this answer








                                                                                          New contributor




                                                                                          George Han is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                          "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



                                                                                          A == Duck



                                                                                          B == Swim.



                                                                                          If A, then B == If it's a Duck then it can swim.



                                                                                          if not-B, then not-A == If this little guy can't swim, then it cannot be a duck.



                                                                                          Why? Because a duck can swim! how can it be a duck but cannot swim?



                                                                                          Isn't this logic easy to see?







                                                                                          share|improve this answer








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                                                                                          answered yesterday









                                                                                          George HanGeorge Han

                                                                                          111




                                                                                          111




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                                                                                          • It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                            – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                            yesterday





















                                                                                          • It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                            – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                            yesterday



















                                                                                          It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                          – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                          yesterday







                                                                                          It might be a sick duck? But I think your example works. If you have references for the reader for more information that would strengthen your answer and direct the readers who want more information to places you have selected for them. Welcome!

                                                                                          – Frank Hubeny
                                                                                          yesterday













                                                                                          1














                                                                                          As others have said, this is not a fallacy.



                                                                                          Visuals can make this easier without the need to follow potentially confusing logical progressions, or the need to know any logical terms. Here's a Venn diagram:



                                                                                          Venn FTW




                                                                                          • "If A then B" means that A is a subset of B.

                                                                                          • Anything outside of B ("not-B") is clearly "not-A"

                                                                                          • For good measure, if you also want to consider "not-A", this means "everything outside of A", which could be B, but could also mean "not-B".




                                                                                          Extending this to the router & internet example in the question:



                                                                                          Router and internet Venn




                                                                                          • The internet is only available to you if your router is on

                                                                                          • It is very possible to have no internet availability, even when your router is on

                                                                                          • The internet is certainly not available to you if your router/modem is not on






                                                                                          share|improve this answer










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                                                                                            1














                                                                                            As others have said, this is not a fallacy.



                                                                                            Visuals can make this easier without the need to follow potentially confusing logical progressions, or the need to know any logical terms. Here's a Venn diagram:



                                                                                            Venn FTW




                                                                                            • "If A then B" means that A is a subset of B.

                                                                                            • Anything outside of B ("not-B") is clearly "not-A"

                                                                                            • For good measure, if you also want to consider "not-A", this means "everything outside of A", which could be B, but could also mean "not-B".




                                                                                            Extending this to the router & internet example in the question:



                                                                                            Router and internet Venn




                                                                                            • The internet is only available to you if your router is on

                                                                                            • It is very possible to have no internet availability, even when your router is on

                                                                                            • The internet is certainly not available to you if your router/modem is not on






                                                                                            share|improve this answer










                                                                                            New contributor




                                                                                            Russ is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                              1












                                                                                              1








                                                                                              1







                                                                                              As others have said, this is not a fallacy.



                                                                                              Visuals can make this easier without the need to follow potentially confusing logical progressions, or the need to know any logical terms. Here's a Venn diagram:



                                                                                              Venn FTW




                                                                                              • "If A then B" means that A is a subset of B.

                                                                                              • Anything outside of B ("not-B") is clearly "not-A"

                                                                                              • For good measure, if you also want to consider "not-A", this means "everything outside of A", which could be B, but could also mean "not-B".




                                                                                              Extending this to the router & internet example in the question:



                                                                                              Router and internet Venn




                                                                                              • The internet is only available to you if your router is on

                                                                                              • It is very possible to have no internet availability, even when your router is on

                                                                                              • The internet is certainly not available to you if your router/modem is not on






                                                                                              share|improve this answer










                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                              Russ is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                                              Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                                                                              As others have said, this is not a fallacy.



                                                                                              Visuals can make this easier without the need to follow potentially confusing logical progressions, or the need to know any logical terms. Here's a Venn diagram:



                                                                                              Venn FTW




                                                                                              • "If A then B" means that A is a subset of B.

                                                                                              • Anything outside of B ("not-B") is clearly "not-A"

                                                                                              • For good measure, if you also want to consider "not-A", this means "everything outside of A", which could be B, but could also mean "not-B".




                                                                                              Extending this to the router & internet example in the question:



                                                                                              Router and internet Venn




                                                                                              • The internet is only available to you if your router is on

                                                                                              • It is very possible to have no internet availability, even when your router is on

                                                                                              • The internet is certainly not available to you if your router/modem is not on







                                                                                              share|improve this answer










                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                              Russ is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                              share|improve this answer








                                                                                              edited yesterday





















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                                                                                              answered yesterday









                                                                                              RussRuss

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                                                                                              1112




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                                                                                                  1














                                                                                                  "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A"



                                                                                                  This is not a fallacy because what it is stating is equivalent to this:



                                                                                                  "If there is A, then there must be a B--every time. Therefore, if there is no B, there could not have been an A, because had there been an A the rule is that there must be a B. So in any case where there is no B, there must have been no A."






                                                                                                  share|improve this answer




























                                                                                                    1














                                                                                                    "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A"



                                                                                                    This is not a fallacy because what it is stating is equivalent to this:



                                                                                                    "If there is A, then there must be a B--every time. Therefore, if there is no B, there could not have been an A, because had there been an A the rule is that there must be a B. So in any case where there is no B, there must have been no A."






                                                                                                    share|improve this answer


























                                                                                                      1












                                                                                                      1








                                                                                                      1







                                                                                                      "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A"



                                                                                                      This is not a fallacy because what it is stating is equivalent to this:



                                                                                                      "If there is A, then there must be a B--every time. Therefore, if there is no B, there could not have been an A, because had there been an A the rule is that there must be a B. So in any case where there is no B, there must have been no A."






                                                                                                      share|improve this answer













                                                                                                      "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A"



                                                                                                      This is not a fallacy because what it is stating is equivalent to this:



                                                                                                      "If there is A, then there must be a B--every time. Therefore, if there is no B, there could not have been an A, because had there been an A the rule is that there must be a B. So in any case where there is no B, there must have been no A."







                                                                                                      share|improve this answer












                                                                                                      share|improve this answer



                                                                                                      share|improve this answer










                                                                                                      answered yesterday









                                                                                                      ChelonianChelonian

                                                                                                      1,15939




                                                                                                      1,15939























                                                                                                          1














                                                                                                          You probably have mistranslated the statement :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          It is not a fallacy, but rather a mistranslation.



                                                                                                          If you have something that comes before therefore, it is already a premise.



                                                                                                          Your premise:




                                                                                                          If A then B




                                                                                                          Is already supposed to be the case. It does not say that there are other premises that contribute to the conditional.



                                                                                                          It is analogous to: If it is raining then there are clouds.



                                                                                                          And we can infer from it that if there are no clouds then there is not raining.



                                                                                                          So, there is no fallacy here.



                                                                                                          But remember this : Deductive reasoning is about the logical form of your argument.



                                                                                                          If we suppose (just suppose) that the conditional if A then B is true, then it follows that the conditional If not-B then not-A is true.



                                                                                                          Suppose that the conditional if A then B lacks C, which is also needed for B to take place.



                                                                                                          Well, that's not deductive problem (not a non-sequitur), but it is a problem related either to the truth or reliability of the premise, or simply a mistranslation as I suggested.



                                                                                                          If I say that If you worked then you did make money , then it is the same as if I say if you did not make money, then you did not work.



                                                                                                          But whether work is sufficient to make money or not, that's another subject. Deductive arguments are only about the truth of the conclusion, given the premises are true.



                                                                                                          Now back to your example :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          In this case in order to have internet (B) the router must be on (A) should not be translated to if A then B , but instead if B then A.



                                                                                                          If there is internet -B- then the router is ON -A-.



                                                                                                          That is the correct conditional here :




                                                                                                          • If there is internet then the router is On

                                                                                                          • therefore, if the router is not-On then there is no-Internet.


                                                                                                          So, your premise was mistranslated .



                                                                                                          Consider the clouds example, to see what I mean : Even though clouds can cause rain (with other factors), it does not mean that clouds should be the antecedent in a conditional, so if there are clouds then it is raining is a false premise.



                                                                                                          But it means that if it rains then there are clouds, so the cause should be a consequent, not an antecedent. Think about it.






                                                                                                          share|improve this answer





















                                                                                                          • 1





                                                                                                            Are you sure?

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago













                                                                                                          • No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            21 hours ago
















                                                                                                          1














                                                                                                          You probably have mistranslated the statement :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          It is not a fallacy, but rather a mistranslation.



                                                                                                          If you have something that comes before therefore, it is already a premise.



                                                                                                          Your premise:




                                                                                                          If A then B




                                                                                                          Is already supposed to be the case. It does not say that there are other premises that contribute to the conditional.



                                                                                                          It is analogous to: If it is raining then there are clouds.



                                                                                                          And we can infer from it that if there are no clouds then there is not raining.



                                                                                                          So, there is no fallacy here.



                                                                                                          But remember this : Deductive reasoning is about the logical form of your argument.



                                                                                                          If we suppose (just suppose) that the conditional if A then B is true, then it follows that the conditional If not-B then not-A is true.



                                                                                                          Suppose that the conditional if A then B lacks C, which is also needed for B to take place.



                                                                                                          Well, that's not deductive problem (not a non-sequitur), but it is a problem related either to the truth or reliability of the premise, or simply a mistranslation as I suggested.



                                                                                                          If I say that If you worked then you did make money , then it is the same as if I say if you did not make money, then you did not work.



                                                                                                          But whether work is sufficient to make money or not, that's another subject. Deductive arguments are only about the truth of the conclusion, given the premises are true.



                                                                                                          Now back to your example :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          In this case in order to have internet (B) the router must be on (A) should not be translated to if A then B , but instead if B then A.



                                                                                                          If there is internet -B- then the router is ON -A-.



                                                                                                          That is the correct conditional here :




                                                                                                          • If there is internet then the router is On

                                                                                                          • therefore, if the router is not-On then there is no-Internet.


                                                                                                          So, your premise was mistranslated .



                                                                                                          Consider the clouds example, to see what I mean : Even though clouds can cause rain (with other factors), it does not mean that clouds should be the antecedent in a conditional, so if there are clouds then it is raining is a false premise.



                                                                                                          But it means that if it rains then there are clouds, so the cause should be a consequent, not an antecedent. Think about it.






                                                                                                          share|improve this answer





















                                                                                                          • 1





                                                                                                            Are you sure?

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago













                                                                                                          • No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            21 hours ago














                                                                                                          1












                                                                                                          1








                                                                                                          1







                                                                                                          You probably have mistranslated the statement :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          It is not a fallacy, but rather a mistranslation.



                                                                                                          If you have something that comes before therefore, it is already a premise.



                                                                                                          Your premise:




                                                                                                          If A then B




                                                                                                          Is already supposed to be the case. It does not say that there are other premises that contribute to the conditional.



                                                                                                          It is analogous to: If it is raining then there are clouds.



                                                                                                          And we can infer from it that if there are no clouds then there is not raining.



                                                                                                          So, there is no fallacy here.



                                                                                                          But remember this : Deductive reasoning is about the logical form of your argument.



                                                                                                          If we suppose (just suppose) that the conditional if A then B is true, then it follows that the conditional If not-B then not-A is true.



                                                                                                          Suppose that the conditional if A then B lacks C, which is also needed for B to take place.



                                                                                                          Well, that's not deductive problem (not a non-sequitur), but it is a problem related either to the truth or reliability of the premise, or simply a mistranslation as I suggested.



                                                                                                          If I say that If you worked then you did make money , then it is the same as if I say if you did not make money, then you did not work.



                                                                                                          But whether work is sufficient to make money or not, that's another subject. Deductive arguments are only about the truth of the conclusion, given the premises are true.



                                                                                                          Now back to your example :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          In this case in order to have internet (B) the router must be on (A) should not be translated to if A then B , but instead if B then A.



                                                                                                          If there is internet -B- then the router is ON -A-.



                                                                                                          That is the correct conditional here :




                                                                                                          • If there is internet then the router is On

                                                                                                          • therefore, if the router is not-On then there is no-Internet.


                                                                                                          So, your premise was mistranslated .



                                                                                                          Consider the clouds example, to see what I mean : Even though clouds can cause rain (with other factors), it does not mean that clouds should be the antecedent in a conditional, so if there are clouds then it is raining is a false premise.



                                                                                                          But it means that if it rains then there are clouds, so the cause should be a consequent, not an antecedent. Think about it.






                                                                                                          share|improve this answer















                                                                                                          You probably have mistranslated the statement :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          It is not a fallacy, but rather a mistranslation.



                                                                                                          If you have something that comes before therefore, it is already a premise.



                                                                                                          Your premise:




                                                                                                          If A then B




                                                                                                          Is already supposed to be the case. It does not say that there are other premises that contribute to the conditional.



                                                                                                          It is analogous to: If it is raining then there are clouds.



                                                                                                          And we can infer from it that if there are no clouds then there is not raining.



                                                                                                          So, there is no fallacy here.



                                                                                                          But remember this : Deductive reasoning is about the logical form of your argument.



                                                                                                          If we suppose (just suppose) that the conditional if A then B is true, then it follows that the conditional If not-B then not-A is true.



                                                                                                          Suppose that the conditional if A then B lacks C, which is also needed for B to take place.



                                                                                                          Well, that's not deductive problem (not a non-sequitur), but it is a problem related either to the truth or reliability of the premise, or simply a mistranslation as I suggested.



                                                                                                          If I say that If you worked then you did make money , then it is the same as if I say if you did not make money, then you did not work.



                                                                                                          But whether work is sufficient to make money or not, that's another subject. Deductive arguments are only about the truth of the conclusion, given the premises are true.



                                                                                                          Now back to your example :




                                                                                                          "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                                                                                                          there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                                                                                                          In this case in order to have internet (B) the router must be on (A) should not be translated to if A then B , but instead if B then A.



                                                                                                          If there is internet -B- then the router is ON -A-.



                                                                                                          That is the correct conditional here :




                                                                                                          • If there is internet then the router is On

                                                                                                          • therefore, if the router is not-On then there is no-Internet.


                                                                                                          So, your premise was mistranslated .



                                                                                                          Consider the clouds example, to see what I mean : Even though clouds can cause rain (with other factors), it does not mean that clouds should be the antecedent in a conditional, so if there are clouds then it is raining is a false premise.



                                                                                                          But it means that if it rains then there are clouds, so the cause should be a consequent, not an antecedent. Think about it.







                                                                                                          share|improve this answer














                                                                                                          share|improve this answer



                                                                                                          share|improve this answer








                                                                                                          edited yesterday

























                                                                                                          answered yesterday









                                                                                                          SmootQSmootQ

                                                                                                          1,293112




                                                                                                          1,293112








                                                                                                          • 1





                                                                                                            Are you sure?

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago













                                                                                                          • No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            21 hours ago














                                                                                                          • 1





                                                                                                            Are you sure?

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            23 hours ago











                                                                                                          • True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                            – JBentley
                                                                                                            23 hours ago













                                                                                                          • No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                            – SmootQ
                                                                                                            21 hours ago








                                                                                                          1




                                                                                                          1





                                                                                                          Are you sure?

                                                                                                          – JBentley
                                                                                                          23 hours ago





                                                                                                          Are you sure?

                                                                                                          – JBentley
                                                                                                          23 hours ago













                                                                                                          Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                          – SmootQ
                                                                                                          23 hours ago





                                                                                                          Clouds do not have to be necessarily right about one's head, it is possible for the clouds to be in a distant area, and wind does the rest. So, it rains therefore there are clouds (either here or somewhere else)

                                                                                                          – SmootQ
                                                                                                          23 hours ago













                                                                                                          True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                          – JBentley
                                                                                                          23 hours ago







                                                                                                          True, but then that complicates the logic. E.g. no clouds -> no rain, do we mean clouds that you can see? Because the clouds can be elsewhere and causing rain. But if you mean clouds anywhere (whether visible or not), there is always a cloud somewhere (and indeed, probably always rain somewhere). Also, I'm not a meteorologist, but it seems to me we can have a situation where the cloud has just finished evaporating, and the last drops of rain are still falling.

                                                                                                          – JBentley
                                                                                                          23 hours ago















                                                                                                          No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                          – SmootQ
                                                                                                          21 hours ago





                                                                                                          No, the conditional means "there exists a cloud" whether we see it or not, even if not right above us. There is no rain without clouds. This premise is inductive in nature: so there is an implied "probably".

                                                                                                          – SmootQ
                                                                                                          21 hours ago











                                                                                                          0














                                                                                                          Another way of looking at this is with a diagram.



                                                                                                          In your example, “If A, then B” is consistent with A and B both being true, or A being false and B being anything — but not with A being true and B being false.  You could draw that as:



                                                                                                              A:║ true │ false
                                                                                                          B ║ │
                                                                                                          ══════╬══════╪══════
                                                                                                          true ║ ✔️ │ ✔️
                                                                                                          ──────╫──────┼──────
                                                                                                          false ║ ✘✘✘ │ ✔️


                                                                                                          But that's exactly the same diagram you'd get for “If not-B then not-A.”  So the two are equivalent.



                                                                                                          (As per other answers, this assumes classical two-valued logic, of course.  This is basically a Karnaugh map, though that's mainly used for simplifying boolean expressions.  You could alternatively use a truth table, as per other answers, but I find this diagram easier to follow.)






                                                                                                          share|improve this answer










                                                                                                          New contributor




                                                                                                          gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                                            0














                                                                                                            Another way of looking at this is with a diagram.



                                                                                                            In your example, “If A, then B” is consistent with A and B both being true, or A being false and B being anything — but not with A being true and B being false.  You could draw that as:



                                                                                                                A:║ true │ false
                                                                                                            B ║ │
                                                                                                            ══════╬══════╪══════
                                                                                                            true ║ ✔️ │ ✔️
                                                                                                            ──────╫──────┼──────
                                                                                                            false ║ ✘✘✘ │ ✔️


                                                                                                            But that's exactly the same diagram you'd get for “If not-B then not-A.”  So the two are equivalent.



                                                                                                            (As per other answers, this assumes classical two-valued logic, of course.  This is basically a Karnaugh map, though that's mainly used for simplifying boolean expressions.  You could alternatively use a truth table, as per other answers, but I find this diagram easier to follow.)






                                                                                                            share|improve this answer










                                                                                                            New contributor




                                                                                                            gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                                                                                                              0












                                                                                                              0








                                                                                                              0







                                                                                                              Another way of looking at this is with a diagram.



                                                                                                              In your example, “If A, then B” is consistent with A and B both being true, or A being false and B being anything — but not with A being true and B being false.  You could draw that as:



                                                                                                                  A:║ true │ false
                                                                                                              B ║ │
                                                                                                              ══════╬══════╪══════
                                                                                                              true ║ ✔️ │ ✔️
                                                                                                              ──────╫──────┼──────
                                                                                                              false ║ ✘✘✘ │ ✔️


                                                                                                              But that's exactly the same diagram you'd get for “If not-B then not-A.”  So the two are equivalent.



                                                                                                              (As per other answers, this assumes classical two-valued logic, of course.  This is basically a Karnaugh map, though that's mainly used for simplifying boolean expressions.  You could alternatively use a truth table, as per other answers, but I find this diagram easier to follow.)






                                                                                                              share|improve this answer










                                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                                              gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                                                              Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                                                                                              Another way of looking at this is with a diagram.



                                                                                                              In your example, “If A, then B” is consistent with A and B both being true, or A being false and B being anything — but not with A being true and B being false.  You could draw that as:



                                                                                                                  A:║ true │ false
                                                                                                              B ║ │
                                                                                                              ══════╬══════╪══════
                                                                                                              true ║ ✔️ │ ✔️
                                                                                                              ──────╫──────┼──────
                                                                                                              false ║ ✘✘✘ │ ✔️


                                                                                                              But that's exactly the same diagram you'd get for “If not-B then not-A.”  So the two are equivalent.



                                                                                                              (As per other answers, this assumes classical two-valued logic, of course.  This is basically a Karnaugh map, though that's mainly used for simplifying boolean expressions.  You could alternatively use a truth table, as per other answers, but I find this diagram easier to follow.)







                                                                                                              share|improve this answer










                                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                                              gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                                                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                                                                              share|improve this answer



                                                                                                              share|improve this answer








                                                                                                              edited yesterday





















                                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                                              gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                                              answered yesterday









                                                                                                              giddsgidds

                                                                                                              1011




                                                                                                              1011




                                                                                                              New contributor




                                                                                                              gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                                              New contributor





                                                                                                              gidds is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                                                                                  0














                                                                                                                  I think that you need to express the problem as so: If A->B implies that B will happen ALWAYS when A has occurred. Then, if B has not occurred, you are sure that A has not occurred.






                                                                                                                  share|improve this answer




























                                                                                                                    0














                                                                                                                    I think that you need to express the problem as so: If A->B implies that B will happen ALWAYS when A has occurred. Then, if B has not occurred, you are sure that A has not occurred.






                                                                                                                    share|improve this answer


























                                                                                                                      0












                                                                                                                      0








                                                                                                                      0







                                                                                                                      I think that you need to express the problem as so: If A->B implies that B will happen ALWAYS when A has occurred. Then, if B has not occurred, you are sure that A has not occurred.






                                                                                                                      share|improve this answer













                                                                                                                      I think that you need to express the problem as so: If A->B implies that B will happen ALWAYS when A has occurred. Then, if B has not occurred, you are sure that A has not occurred.







                                                                                                                      share|improve this answer












                                                                                                                      share|improve this answer



                                                                                                                      share|improve this answer










                                                                                                                      answered yesterday









                                                                                                                      RodolfoAPRodolfoAP

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